WowAce

It does seem odd that regenpoints are weighted even more in the healpoints scheme.

Regeneration is the key factor in endurance over long stretches of time, so why rub it in by having a third category dedicated to it?

It would be the same as having a +heal category that counts the maximum healed by your theoretically most powerful spell (hi, it is prayer of healing, not greater heal) until OOM, ignoring regen. That'd be the manapool and +heal side of things.

Nice.. that's why I really felt I could only comment on the generality and not specifics, my priest isn't high enough lvl for me to have thought about things which break the 5s rule, but as those things should theoretically both help the powerpoints as well as Endurancepoints, their benefits should be seen in both stats (thus be doubly important). If you can regen up to 90% of your most efficient spell while casting it, then you should be getting close to your powerpoints score in your Endurancepoints score anyway, and so any items or effects which help with ignoring the 5s rule will count as double.

Regenpoints as I see it in current version does nothing except blow out of all proportion the importance of spirit. Powerpoints and Endurancepoints is what I'd like healingpoints to be solely based on.

K.

I forgot to include that many smaller casts is *far more efficient* than fewer larger casts due directly to overhealing.

So in "theory craft world" when you're the only healer in a situation and you know exactly how much each heal would land and your efficiency is up near 100%, yes, GHeal5 makes sense.

Again, more realistically, is GHeal1 (merely for set bonuses) or lower rank Heals. You gain not only heal/mana efficiency, but much less overhealing and you never run out of mana.

Please point me to the build that allows you to chain Greater Heal 5 over a 7 minute fight without running out of mana... and that doesn't have more than 40% overhealing, easily.

This new version basically blows healpoints out of the realm of usefulness and solidly into the realm of theorycraft.

It assumes that you are *at least* renewing 1 target, and the default setting is 3 renews up at a time. This automatically makes Renew our most efficient spell, which in theory of course it is, but in practice with the way that renew is overwritten it is NEVER worth keeping renew up if you aren't the wielder of the most powerful renew in your guild...

...hey, guess what. The person with the talents and the highest +heal gear is the wielder, not necessarily the person with the most well rounded healing gear that balances regen and +healing. Oops! Of course its is possible that the person with the most +healing out of the most balanced gear does that, but that is not how gearing up in WoW works: people saturate and spike at various stats (tons of +healing not being uncommon, or tons of mana) and then eventually round that out as they break into tier2/2.5 gear.

And so an interesting vector comes into play: the spec that yields the most healpoints will include 5/5 mental agility and take away from talents that are "hard to calculate" but obviously far more vital to healing...

Meh. I suppose it is still useful, at least to see what gear would cause our Flash Heals / Greaters to have the most longevity, but the inclusion of "...oh yeah, and you're renewing a target, too!" is unrealistic and thus misguiding.

Now please explain why Gloves of Prophecy with NO ENCHANT are more healpoints than either:

1) Gloves of Transcendence (w/o considering set bonus) 2) Gloves of the Messiah +30 healing enchant

PS ->

"In general, even if you regen enough mana in one second for your cheapest spell, you still have to cast the spell and then wait 5 seconds, so time for each spell is always at least triple (based on a default 3 second spell), thus your healing efficiency is at it's best always one third or less of the potency (less when the spell takes shorter than 3 seconds) when you have a full manabar."

This makes no sense, because guess what? Tier2 Priests have 30% of spirit translated to regen on top of the massive amounts of X/5. Heal2 is easily our most efficient spell simply because it takes the same time as GHeal5 and everything until it ***While retaining the same exact +heal bonus***. I personally regen 60% of the mana it takes to cast it before it even lands, self buffed. Raid buffed it is nearly 90%.

The default duration is fine, I suppose, but the entire role of priests comes into play closer to the 7-10 minute fight mark (generally the length of fights when raidwide gear is at the minimum level). Over that much time you're simply going to get the most points healed on your raid if you step down ranks.

And so it only undermines your point when GHeal4/5 is considered "most efficient."

In summation, you should really rethink the efficiency equation based around Heal2 and kill the renew vector. Cook the numbers until Heal2 is considered the most efficient, you're not going to win any arguments by ever claiming that GHeal5 or Renew is, when considering practicality of the application...

I feel I've perhaps made a bit of an error in the language I used about ignoring or taking time out of the situation, and then talking about telling people the powerpoint time, and using that to calculate Endurancepoints.

In the case of priests, we all know mana = life and survivability, and as mana gets drained over time, knowing when we run out is a good thing, because it gives us a barrier to work with. What I meant when I was talking about removing time, is removing arbitrary times, removing people's ability to put in some other time than the real time it takes you to go from full to 0 when within the 5s rule.

You have no interest in knowing a powerpoint number based on a time longer then what it takes for you to run out of mana, because you're then fooling yourself (if it takes you 30 seconds to go from full to 0 then putting 1 minute, or 5 minutes is deluding yourself because you run out in 30 seconds). So what I mean by taking time out regarding powerpoints is that we start with a full manabar, use the most efficient spell, and time is derived from that, and not the other way around (taking time out of the 'configurable options' is probably saying it better as I meant it.. it should be derived, not configured)

But then you might ask; "if we take time out of powerpoints, why do you have to take it out of Endurancepoints and use the powerpoints time?", that's mainly so that there is an inherent balance between powerpoints and Endurancepoints. When your mana is 0, you first have to wait for mana to regen, then cast the spell, then wait 5 seconds, and then wait for mana to regen again for the nex spell, so time for each spell increases from the time the spell itself take to (time of spell) + (5 seconds) + (time it takes to regen mana) and the best way to compare this regenerative state to a state with full manabar state is to use the same time to calculate Endurancepoints as we get from powerpoints.

So to phrase it in another way, the best way to show how screwed you are when mana is 0 regarding healing ability is to have the Endurancepoints time the same as the powerpoint time.

In general, even if you regen enough mana in one second for your cheapest spell, you still have to cast the spell and then wait 5 seconds, so time for each spell is always at least triple (based on a default 3 second spell), thus your healing efficiency is at it's best always one third or less of the potency (less when the spell takes shorter than 3 seconds) when you have a full manabar. Thus spirit, should always be third to mana and stamina, and I feel healpoints should reflect that, and with my calculations, it does.

I would also like to see in the middle frame perhaps a comparison between the different healing spells where you can see the total time it takes to regen mana for the spell, cast the spell, plus adding the 5 seconds, so you can compare that between spells as well.

triplepost

Before you read this, I'll first comment in general how I see a healpoint system, I'm not criticising yours.

The thing I like about tankpoints is that it's so simple.. You have X amount of hitpoints, and Y amount of damage resistance which means total damage you can take before you die is X*(1+y), because all dodge, parry, dam res, defense and the rest do is to add in some way to your chance of surviving, and thus can be calculated to a hitpoint equal.

As the time of combat is a complete unknown, to remove time from the formulas is a good idea.

But as we know the statistics regarding what drains mana, and those factors are static, we can give a more in-depth look into healpoints rather than tankpoints.

There are 2 situations which I feel a healer faces and healpoints could reflect: 1) Total amount of hitpoints healed within the 5s rule, from max mana to empty - plain and simple, ignoring time, how much can you heal from full to 0 within the 5s rule. 2) When mana = 0, total amount you can heal purely from your mana regen - this should reflect your best spell which maximises time out of the 5s rule as well as maximise amount you can heal.

Any other way of trying to measure it by giving it a given time I feel is too situational, it depends on the priest, it depends on the hitpoint bar of the person you're healing, it depends on the foe you're facing.. so what is good for one might not be optimal for another. Better to just take time out of it completely and focus on total hp healed as well as hp/mana/s Vs mana/s.

So, what I'd like to change about the healpoints system, if I had the skills to program it: 1) Change powerpoints so that it reflects total amount healed from full manabar to empty all within the 5s rule (it would be fine to show what the total duration of how long that would be in the tooltip). I'm looking at "tot HP (+r)" and that's exactly what I'd want as Powerpoints. 2) Change endurancepoints so that it uses the same duration as it took powerpoints to go from full to 0. 3) remove regenpoints completely from the points, perhaps change it to a sidenote and show total amount of time from empty manabar to full, and not have it affect healthpoints at all.

The third is mainly because you don't really care about your manabar when you're not in combat, you can easily wait for the manabar until its full and then start the combat, so from a healing point of view, it's completely useless out of combat. When you're in combat, you want to know what Endurancepoints is saying, and you want it to use the same duration as powerpoints to really show you the difference between healing with a full manabar and healing with an empty manabar.

I like the comparison frame between the different heal spells, but I don't see why the dropdown lists don't contain all the spells in each one, so you can compare FH 1 with FH 2 against Heal 2, so you could mix and match. This frame could also contain hp/mana/s for each spell when the mana is empty, same as what Endurancepoints is telling you, except you can compare that for each spell you have.

Hope this helps. K.

Spell power how affects healing spells. Please new version ^^

Maybe we can flesh this out a bit more. It seems to me the the relevant comparison is between how much you can heal per mana point and how much mana regens from the spi vs. the +healing bonus. If the healing bonus is larger than the product of the HP/mana and the mana regened, then the healing bonus is more valulable.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that I get 100% of the mana regened from the spirit, which in this case we have 8 spi = 2 mp2 = 1 mp1. So we get 1 mana / sec from the 8 spi as a priest. Now, assume that I have +700 healing already, and I'm using the most efficient heal I have, which is Greater Heal Rank 1 (8.33 HP / mana). With a cast time of 3 sec, I receive 86% of the +healing bonus on the robes, which is +26. Now, the 3 extra mana I got from the spirit allow me to heal for an additional 25 HP = 8.33 HP/mana * 3 mana, which is 1 HP less than the +healing gear gives me.

So even using the most mana efficient spell and gaining 100% mana regen from the spirit, 35 +healing is still better than 8 spirit. The realistic return on the spirit (15-30% + time outside the 5 sec rule) just makes the argument in favor of the +35 even stronger. As does decreasing the amount of +healing gear, which just reduces the mana efficiency. So it seems to me that something strange is happening with Healpoints.

I am currently using the Flowing Ritual Robes. The healpoint difference when I click on the link to Robes of Transcendence is -537. The Flowing Ritual Robes have +4 stats on them, so Transcendence has no more int, 8 less spirit, and 35 more healing. Surely 35 more healing is better than 8 more spirit on the Flowing Ritual Robes. Perhaps there is a bug where it's not detecting the +healing on robes.

Is there a way to list the stats / enchants / healing that HealPoints sees on equipment?

of u change the duration does it reflect the change in the tooltip? also to make a fight say 3 mins which slider do u change endurace/power

could you add a feature to find out the most possible hps for a cetain fight-length ? I mean a kind of bar where you set the minutes and if the fight is very long mana-reg (eg) becomes a higher value and other things a lesser...

is mp5 rated so high... i would think that 1% crit + 69 healing is way better??? or is it possible to custom configure the values?

something is wierd with the tooltips; it thinks that anglists charm is better than the cthun neck yet the stats are better unless 14intel > 25 +heal :)

also jindo's hammer + bag > finkles????